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Calling a Heretic Christian…

You Are Scandalous & Perhaps Heretics

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You replied in "Vatican II: Heretical or Ambiguous?" of May 17, 2011: “Heretics and schismatics do not deserve the name of Christians. To call them Christians, however, is not heresy, it is an imprecision of language. Catholic and Christian are synonymous. When a Catholic calls a Protestant a Christian … he does not directly incur heresy... It reflected a bad tendency, but, as far as we know, the use of this designation per se was never considered a heresy."

[Here are] the texts from The Holy Scripture which show The Church (The Catholic Church alone) has always understood as Divine revelation (dogma!) about heretics and schismatics as non-Christians and not only that, but also as even Antichristians(!!) and Antichrists(!!) [notes between brackets]:
  1. Jesus Christ: “And if he will not hear The Church [heretics and schismatics don't hear The Church!], let him be to thee as the heathen [heathens are non-Christians and unbelievers!] and publican.” (Matthew 18:17);

  2. Jesus Christ: “He that is not with me [not with me = not with The Church since The Church is The Body of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23)!], is against me [against me = against The Church! – see previous note]” (Matthew 12:30);

  3. St. John, Apostle and The Evangelist: “Even now there are become many Antichrists [!!] … They went out from us [heretics and schismatics went out of The Church!] but they were not of us [Christians!]. For if they had been of us [Christians!], they would no doubt have remained with us [Christians!]: but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us [Christians!].” (1 John 2:18-19).
Necessarily, your statement (of TIA) that calling heretics, schismatics, Protestants, Easterns** etc. 'Christians' aren't heresies is at least a very grave error, a very grave deviation from the orthodox (i.e. Christian i.e. Catholic) faith and a very grave scandal (due to downplaying of the deadly poison - heresy - into a drink with just as bad a taste (improper language).

** - If anyone calls Easterns (Byzantines (Greeks), Armenians, Copts etc.) 'Orthodox' and differs from them (as Catholics do), then he outright condemns himself and all his co-religionists as heterodox!

No Pope or document of The Church before Vatican II called Easterns 'Orthodox'. It is clear that saying: Heretics/schismatics/Protestants/Easterns are Christians.” is a heresy (it is not heresy if the verb “are called” is used instead of “are”!), whether it is considered as heresy or not.

Now, is there such a heresy stating “Protestants are Christians” in the Vatican II documents, which would necessarily mean that Vatican II is a heretical Council and thus not a Church Council?

Yes, there is: “They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour.” (official Vatican II document “Lumen Gentium”, no. 15). This is because the pronoun “They” refers to specific people. To what people?

To Protestants, because it is immediately preceded by these two sentences: “The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal.”

Now, TIA, you have an official Vatican II statement saying that they, Protestants, believe in God and in Christ while the Holy Spirit in the Bible texts cited above reveals and defines exactly the opposite: that heretics Protestants are unbelievers, non-Christians, Antichrists and antichristians!

Thus it is clear that indeed The Third Secret of Fatima is about the Vatican II heretical council (which thus isn't a Church Council) and about the great multitude of priests and laity who would go to Hell because of their blind, obstinate and unlawful obedience to the heresies of Vatican II, heretical, and thus in no way a Church council.

“The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness.” (1 Corinthians 3:19).



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TIA responds:


The time you spent in writing your argument reveals that you have some consideration for TIA, although you oppose us in almost everything. We thank you for this parcel of consideration.

This said, we must affirm that your statements seem quite unbalanced. Indeed, we have never called Protestants or Schismatics Christians, as you accuse us of doing. We do not call the Schismatics “orthodox,” as you also wrongly pretend. They are not orthodox: They incurred heresies by denying the Filioque, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility and the Petrine Primacy. As far as we know, in the United States we number among the very few who never call the Schismatics "orthodox." Therefore, the two suppositions upon which you base your reasoning are entirely baseless.

We only affirmed, and we stand behind it, that it is not a heresy to call someone a Christian; it is an impropriety of language. Now then, for saying this you accused us of scandal and grave error and implied that we fell into heresy.

Your “demonstration” of these accusations is two passages from St. Matthew’s Gospel and one from an Epistle of St. John, which affirm nothing specific on the topic in discussion. Then, you interpret those passages in a subjective way that neither is conclusive nor has any authority.

Next, as a supposed argument, you present the fact that Vatican II called the Schismatics “orthodox.” This pretends to prove that calling a heretic Christian is necessarily heretical. This “reasoning” lacks seriousness. Vatican II also stated that “outside of the Church there is no salvation” (Lumen gentium 14a) and this did not become a heresy just because it was affirmed by that Council.

Therefore, none of your arguments concur with your accusations.

If you want to prove that there is heresy in calling someone Christian when he does not deserve this title, or if you want, at least, to be taken seriously, please quote some authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church declaring that this is a heresy, scandal or grave error, as you pretend.

When you find this clear-cut teaching, send it to us. We will be grateful to you for having taught us something new in Catholic Doctrine. After double checking your sources, we willingly will apologize for our ignorance before our readers.

Until such document appears, it would perhaps be advisable to keep your incomplete reasoning to yourself. It would save you and us some time and would avoid projecting an unpleasantly poor image of some sectors of traditionalism.


     TIA correspondent desk

Blason de Charlemagne
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Posted September 15, 2011

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